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THE SAIPAN JUNGLE FOWL ( Updated New Facts )

 
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: THE SAIPAN JUNGLE FOWL ( Updated New Facts ) Reply with quote

THE SAIPAN JUNGLE FOWL
by B.W. Saylor (1977)
"The write spent four years in the U.S. Navy and was all over the South Sea Islands. Most of the islands had wild chickens; the island of Ulitha, close to the Philipines, had some little black chickens that could fly up and over the tree tops like quail, and they were about the size of a quail. One day I saw a six foot lizzard grab one and "chomped" twice and swallowed it whole, live and still kicking.
The best fowl I found were on the island of Saipan. These had long legs and necks, the cocks stood tails low, head high. They were black reds with grayisn, platinum, red cock hackles, tail feathers were redish gold. Cocks weigh six pounds or more. The hens were white on breast with black and white lacing on the upper part of the body. These chickens were game and would strike without a bill hold. They had small peacombs and some had no comb at all; not wattles. They had a big dew-lap in the center of the throat.
A cock would have a certain area to run over and would have several hens scattered in this area. If another cock crowed in the vicinity, he would come charging out like a mad bull. There would be about four or five hundred yards between each cock's area and in this no-man's land, the bull stags would run. I have seen as many as two dozen together, and they would run like this until they were about two years old. Then one of them would challenge some old cock and take his hens and area.
I questioned all the jap prisoners, and they said the wild chickens were there when they came on the island. I then went to the old Native Polynesian Chief and he said his ancestors brought the wild chickens with them when they first came to the island two or three thousand years ago. Most scientists think all domesticated fowl came from the straight comb Red Jungle Fowl - I say they are wrong and I think I can prove it.
I brought back five baby chicks from Saipan in 1945. Three of these had no comb and some even to this day have no comb. After 30 years of breeding and studying them, I believe the pure ones never had a comb. So I am going to start breeding the no-comb to no-comb to see if I can not get them back pure again.
Now for the proof I referred to -Everyone knows you can not cross a cow and a horse. No doubt they come from the same ancestors, but it is too far back, perhaps a billion years. A cow and buffalo will cross, so their ancestors branched apart just a few million years ago no doubt.
Now the Saipans and the Red Jungle Fowl are extremely hard to cross; out of three setting of 30 eggs, I got one chicken, so I would say their ancerstors branched apart before the cow and buffalo did. The Guinea fowl are more kin to the Saipan than the Red Jungle Fowl.
I have an 8-month Saipan stag running with five Guinea hens and I saw the stag mating with them so I set 10 eggs and hatched five chicks; all were fertile but some died in the shell. I think if the stag had ben older all would have hatched. They look like a turkey and a voice like a peacock. No comb and center wattle like the Saipan and are larger than either parent.
I believe there were two strains of chickens; the Red Jungle fowl that took to trees and the Saipan that took to the plains. Finsterbusch and others thought there must be such a wild breed of fowl they called Gallus Gigantus but that don't quite fit the Saipans so I'll just call them Saipan because that's the last place on earth that they run wild. They do get some bigger when fed commercial feeds.
No one knows where the Polynesian natives picked these fowl up - probably Samoa or some island on the way. It would have to be a place without trees and low grass as they developed their long legs from running and the long neck from looking over the grass, and if they ever had a comb, it would have got hung in the grass and got caught. The ones without a comb ould have got away to breed more. They being a plain fowl, they won't roost in trees. Some will sit lenghtwise on a 2x4 roost, will not roost on damp ground if there is a log or shelf in the pen they will get on it. They can hear much better than other fowl. They wil recognize my step before they can see me, and if a stranger approaches they will hide.
I would say all our domesticated chickens have some Saipan blood - some more, some less. I think the straight comb fowl would have more Red Jungle blood and the peacomb more Saipan blood. All game chickens will cross easily with the Saipan, so they would all have to have Saipan blood. Only the pure Red Jungle Fowl won't cross, or they are extremely hard to cross.
The Japs had let losse thousands of chickens on the islands - all kinds, some games, white leghorns, etc., you name it they had it. These crossed the wild chicne out. When I left Saipan in 1945, I doubt there were more than a dozen pure wild ones left and one more year would have been the end of them. So what I have, I would say are the only pure wild ones on earth.
I do not have any Saipans for sale and if and when I do, will advertise in The Gamecock. I have only sold three pair of these fowl. I sold Clarence Boles a apir in 1948 or 1949. I had several letters from him and he did quite well with the crosses. I lost everything in a fire, records, books, etc., but I think it was the latter part of 1948 that I sent these to Clarence in California.
Another man got a pair but crossed them with Malay. W.M. Watson of Florida got a pair and kept them pure. When he died I got these back. Boles was the only one that fought any, other than myself. I have only fought a few. I think five pittings is the longest fight I've ever had, one or two pittings most times. The half-bloods are the only ones that have the wild instincts. A blind 1/2 breed will whip any cock because he knows exactly when he is within reach of his opponent and will get him everytime.
I plan on taking some to Copper State within a few years but before I die I will sell some as I don't want the breed to die out."
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About five years ago, I sent that article to Dr Alice Storey & here was the reply ..........

Quote:
Alice Storey: "Eddie the Austronesians and subsequently the Polynesians brought chickens to all of the islands they settled. There were no chickens in the Pacific before people. Also so far as I know there is no evidence for prehistoric chickens in Saipan and so chickens there were moved by people within the last 700 years (to be generous). In fact most Island Southeast Asian chickens are not seen in the archaeological record before the 1200s - that is 1800 years AFTER the Austronesians took them into Near Ocenia."


The chickens they took with them & kept in those places back then were a small light weight Bankiva breed about the size of a pure looking Red Junglefowl.

Best regards Eddie
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Godwin
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BattlePosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I accept that the Saipan was introduced to the island but when and by whom is unknown. Even Dr. Alice says "as far as I know..." However I agree with you about the south pacific chicken, which was brought all the way to South America, as being a bankiva. Still the mystery is where did the oriental type come from? To coincide with your other post I now believe the bankiva type to be the original type of gamefowl but at some point the malay type was introduced. This had to be more than 800 years ago because the Shamo is (I believe) that old and it came from a pre-existing malay type from southeast asia...historically. So the oriental type must have come from somewhere, maybe from an island like the Saipan...or Dodo.
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Godwin wrote:
I accept that the Saipan was introduced to the island but when and by whom is unknown. Even Dr. Alice says "as far as I know..." However I agree with you about the south pacific chicken, which was brought all the way to South America, as being a bankiva. Still the mystery is where did the oriental type come from? To coincide with your other post I now believe the bankiva type to be the original type of gamefowl but at some point the malay type was introduced. This had to be more than 800 years ago because the Shamo is (I believe) that old and it came from a pre-existing malay type from southeast asia...historically. So the oriental type must have come from somewhere, maybe from an island like the Saipan...or Dodo.
Did you read this part as well .........
Quote:
"In fact most Island Southeast Asian chickens are not seen in the archaeological record before the 1200s - that is 1800 years AFTER the Austronesians took them into Near Ocenia."


Every island worth looking at, has been looked at by scientists & No thick boned or round head Asil/Oriental type fowl from prehistoric, stone age, bronze age or iron age. The Asil/Oriental type fowl must have been created by fighting Bankiva Game fowl in very short sharp or blunt spurs over hundreds of years & thick bone & round head type Asil/Oriental fowl evolved from that.

Eddie
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I read the history of Saipan, I learn that the Japanese were there since 1922. By December 1941, Saipan had a population of more than 30,000 people, including 25,000 Japanese settlers.[7]

On 1944 during World War II, the United States Marines landed on the beaches. Nearly all of the 30,000 Japanese defenders were killed; thousands of Japanese civilians also died, many threw themselves off Banzai Cliff.
Probably, many shamos and barnyard Japanese fowl returned to the wild? These Saipan birds look like shamo crosses?
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red beard
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BattlePosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good answer Philippe!

Saipans were never and are not any type of wild junglefowl. Flock-bred, cold-blooded shamo type fowl would be a lot closer description. (IMO)
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Shamo-
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BattlePosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need friznecker to weigh in on this one.
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Godwin
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BattlePosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good answer? I don't know about that. So from 1922 to 1944 they went feral and became homogeneous? Most "barnyard" chickens vary in appearance, real Saipans look pretty much alike. However somebody brought them, I just don't think it was in 1922.

Stormer, your quote says "MOST" which denotes not all. However I understand your point but this is still not proof. I cannot agree with anyone who believes orientals fowl came from bankiva. Thats just an easy broad sweeping answer. Why would ancient people, who only cared about producing a winning fighter, take the time to also worry about producing a downward tail fowl from a bankiva? Or somehow reducing wattles and changing the comb type when they can easily be cut off? How do you produce a different comb that is dominate from a bankiva comb? Why would someone concieve these ideas (changing tail, comb and wattles) and spend time on it in addition to breeding fighters? And then these traits become wide spread across Asia? We've already seen what happens when you in large a bankiva, the combat de norde. They still look bankiva though.
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dr cobra
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BattlePosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isn't it a known thing that all four jungle fowl gave their genes to the domesticated fowl?
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Stormer, your quote says "MOST" which denotes not all. However I understand your point but this is still not proof.
But the few that are found before that date are junglefowl size Bankiva, so it don't matter.
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Stormer
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BattlePosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I cannot agree with anyone who believes orientals fowl came from bankiva. Thats just an easy broad sweeping answer. Why would ancient people, who only cared about producing a winning fighter, take the time to also worry about producing a downward tail fowl from a bankiva? Or somehow reducing wattles and changing the comb type when they can easily be cut off? How do you produce a different comb that is dominate from a bankiva comb? Why would someone concieve these ideas (changing tail, comb and wattles) and spend time on it in addition to breeding fighters? And then these traits become wide spread across Asia? We've already seen what happens when you in large a bankiva, the combat de norde. They still look bankiva though.
What makes you think they took the time to deliberately produce a fowl with any of these physical features ?

The Junglefowl evolved over eight million years ago, to fight with sharp natural spurs upto about 11/2 inches long. Those spurs forged that bird into it's physical appearance & is based around that.

When Man stepped in & cut off the birds natural sharp spurs & started tape fighting, over time they turned into the type of fowl they are now.

French Game are not Bankiva, they carry a heap of Oriental blood in them, even more then English & American Game. The only reason they resemble a Bankiva at all, is because they are bred for the gaff & the time limit of the fights are only a few minutes from start to end.

One other thing even within one breed if there were two cock pits & one cock pit matched by height & weight, but the other matched by weight only, the birds from each pit would soon look very different.

Eddie
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Godwin
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BattlePosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if they were all bankiva I guess the malay came from another location. Not finding evidence doesn't prove they didn't exist but I can't prove they existed either. Just my personal observations of the different physical characteristics, mannerisms, and habits. It's too bad no one recorded either the arrival of a new breed or the profound changes to the bankiva type. There's no art work of a transitional stage just a sudden appearance of the Oriental without a historical mention even though both type existed simultaneously.
(Just saw your second post) Weapon type or fight duration will not cause a genetic change to the tail or the comb. Eye color change to white is more possible but usually only found in the oriental. These traits to me just seem to come from another sub-species.
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philippe
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BattlePosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Godwin,
I understand what you mean. Yet I wonder if you do not underestimate the power of selection.

An example, all the dogs come from the wolf. Yet the morphological and behavioral differences between a great dane, a poodle, a chihuahua or a border is great.

Another example:
In the 1950s, Dmitry Belyaev of the Soviet Union's Institute of Cytology and Genetics in Novosibirsk, Siberia, began selecting the fox for tameness. In only 40 years and thirty generations, the fox has been domesticated by this group to such a degree that they can be sold as pets.
Although the scientists always selected foxes based only on behavior, the tame foxes have several other traits that differentiate them from wild foxes. Traits including: white patches of fur on the face, the loss of the fox’s strong musky odor, wagging tails that curl up over the back, drooping ears and dog like barks and whines.
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red beard
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BattlePosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just an obsevation - but the Saipans are often manfighters. I can see no natural selection advantage to this behavior. Every junglefowl I have ever seen has been shy of humans and definatly not human aggressive as a family trait. Although humans have often selected roosters for aggresion.

This chariteristic would indicate to me the presence of multiple generations of selection in the Saipans - before Saylor stole them from a locals pen and told his buddies "look what I caught in the jungle". drink
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Godwin
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BattlePosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I don't underestimate the power of selection as I am aware of the wolf to dog transformation but as you pointed out this was intentional manipulation. So are we saying that ancient people intentionally bred for low tails? Why? pea combs and small wattles? why? white eyes? In modern days we may have leisure time and reason to change chicken appearances but a thousand years ago it's unlikely, to me anyway, that someone would want to focus on tail angle or comb shape in regards to a fighting breed. It's hard enough to produce winners as is. Maybe with a pet breed or show chicken but there were no show chickens back then. The method of change you discribe was something the breeder had in mind before hand and bred toward that goal. Intentional changing the tail and comb of the bankiva is unlikely back hundreds of years ago. The only other option was the changes were genetic mutations that happened in domestication. This could have happened but mutations are rare and the oriental has many; tail angle, pea and flat comb, eye color. But mutations aside I don't believe people purposely choose to change so much about the bankiva. I could see maybe increasing his size and power but the other traits are unimportant to waste time with on a fighting bird.
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red beard
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BattlePosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pea combs and low tails may have been the unintentional result of selection towards size, power and bravery - much like in only fourty years the unintended changes seen in foxes selected for tameness...
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Godwin
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BattlePosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes that's what I said in the above. However it would have to be a mutation to make peacombs because scientific research tells us that you cannot produce a pea comb from breeding two straight (Single) combs, which is what all red jungle fowl have, there are no peacomb red jungle fowl. But mutations are very rare and detectable.
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